An End to Democracy in Poland?

A leading Polish humanist, Barbara Stanosz, is here interviewed by Frank Schrammar, responsible for the Secretariat for Eastern Europe. She explains that democracy is in danger in her country.

Frank Schrammar: You are of the opinion that because of the rising power of the Catholic Church the general situation in Poland could lead to the end of democracy. Why do you think so?

Barbara Stanosz: Probably in the coming months the Concordat with the Vatican will be ratified and there are some points in the Concordat which will make Poland similar to religious states. For example, there is a point about teaching religion in public schools: in the situation in Poland this means that all the next generation of Poles will be indoctrinated by the Catholic Church which, as is well-known, does not like democracy. There is no state control over the topics taught and people who are teaching religion -- all is in the Church's control. And because of the fact that Poland is a Catholic country there is strong pressure for our people to send the children to religious lessons even if their parents wouldn't like to do this.

Frank Schrammar: But isn't there the opportunity of sending the children to ethics education lessons in school?

Barbara Stanosz: In practice there is no real opportunity. The persons responsible for the curricula in public schools say that they have no teachers or that the number of candidates who want to attend ethics education lessons is too small to justify the employment of ethics teachers. It's true that there are not too many children willing to attend ethics instead of religious lessons. So in the majority of schools there is no possibility. In large cities there are some schools with ethic lessons, but in villages and small towns they can't exist...

The second problem is with the plan for a new constitution. The Church is exerting considerable pressure to ensure that there will be no clear division between the Church and the State. The Church gives preference to the term 'independence' rather than to the term 'division'. They want a close collaboration between the State and the Church, and they are likely to get what they want - even though the ruling coalition is a left-wing coalition (a 'postcoummnist' coalition), because the coalition is afraid of the Church too.

Frank Schrammar: Even the left-wing coalition?

Barbara Stanosz: Yes, because of the weakness of their political position: their communist origin, their deep conflict with the President and post-'Solidarity' opposition in Parliament. They therefore don't want to have too many strong enemies and they try to come to a compromise. But any compromise concerning the relations between the State and the Church is very dangerous for democracy. An additional aspect of the situation is that the coalition won the last elections also because of their opposition to the Church. A part of the electorate voted in the last parliamentary election for the ex-communists because they were the only party who declared that there is a necessity to end the Church's domination in Polish public life. This is the reason I voted for them for the first time in my life, but I probably will not vote for anybody in the next parliamentary election. There are many people who simply will not take part in the next election because they're disappointed by the present ruling coalition and there is nobody else they could vote for. This is another reason for the danger of an end to democracy.

If the greater part of society were to loose their interest in democracy of the kind realised in Poland, some person like Lech Walesa would have a good opportunity to end democracy in Poland in a quite definite way. It may appear easy to gain authoritarian power in Poland.

Frank Schrammar: Let's come to the Federation of Polish Humanist Associations. Can you mention some of the future working fields and projects of this newly founded federation?

Barbara Stanosz: The Federation is composed of several different organisations. Some of them differ quite radically in their programmes, but all of them have in common this one point: they all want to have a secular State in Poland. They want clear division between the State and the Church and do not accept the present domination of the Church in public life. What they all agree to do in the future is difficult to say now. Yesterday everybody agreed that the Federation should seek the way to end the economic privileges of the Church in Poland and to remove its ideological domination.

Frank Schrammar: What kind of practical assistance -- in the difficult situation the Polish humanists are facing - would you hope for from your Western European partners?

Barbara Stanosz: One of the most important things could be their presence in Poland, for example in the form of an international conference held in Warsaw. Now that Polish humanists are almost underground, according to the common opinion (propagated by the Church), everybody must believe some religion - if someone does not, he or she is not a normal human being. To change public opinion in Poland it would be helpful to show that there is a strong, worldwide humanist movement, and that being an atheist is not synonymous with being a communist or a deviant person. An international humanist conference together with press conferences and press records of this conference could make Polish people more eager to oppose the Church's claims to be the only stronghold of moral values and of the right world-view.

And also we would like to have help in the form of publications translated from foreign languages into Polish. This would also include some financial help, for example, to prepare translations. We all act honorarily, without pay, for our own publications, but as yet, the Polish humanist organisations are not in a position to finance editing books of foreign humanists, and it would be very important to have such books translated into Polish.

Frank Schrammar: Thank you very much.