Sunday 9 March. 2003

This is Christian Eyschen on the microphone, General Secretary of the French National Freethought Organisation, and also one of the representatives of the International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU) at UNESCO. Today, we are pleased to welcome to the programme our friend Babu Gogineni, Executive Director of this international organization: the IHEU.

C.E.: Good morning Babu, can you introduce the IHEU, its history and what it represents on the five continents?

B.Gogineni: In a few words, the IHEU represents and speaks the voice of reason and the interests of Humanity. It is an international organization established for the promotion of humanism: it was founded in 1952 in Amsterdam, in reaction to the Second World War. The IHEU has always wanted pacifist solutions to be found to the problems of the world. We stand against all tyrannies of the modern world: political, economic, cultural and of course religious tyrannies. IHEU has 100 member organizations from 37 countries from all the continents. They all stand for the defense of human rights, for the right of minorities, the right of access to public services for all, for children's and women's rights.

In Europe we work for equal rights between believers and non believers and against the Vatican, for this State ignores many principles which are dear to humanists. At the UN, in New York, in Vienna and in Geneva, we work with the representatives of countries in order to establish international arrangements for promoting Human liberties.

We also work with the Council of Europe and within UNESCO. We also work for the elimination of poverty everywhere in the world, and towards ensuring a safe future for the planet.

E.C.: In France, we are particularly attached to the question of the separation of Church and State which has had many ups and downs since the French revolution and which finally triumphed with the 1905 law. How is this question of separation felt in other countries?

B.G.: We will celebrate the centenary of this 1905 law by the organization of an international conference, in 2005, in Paris. The separation of Church and State is very important, but as many countries have a "religious" constitution, with religious societies, it is a very complex question.

What is clear for me, however, is that the strict separation of Church and State, of Religion and State, is the only way to protect and guarantee the freedom of conscience and belief. In the history of Europe, of Asia, in the history of all the countries, one notes that whenever religion is integrated in national legislation, humans rights are violated. For this reason we are very anxious that there is no separation between Religion and the State in the Islamic countries. In a lot of countries which gained independence after WWII, one notes that religion has been interfering more and more with political life. That is a worry!

C.E.: According to you, is secularism a "French specificity" or is it an issue everywhere in the world, like a democratic requirement?

B.G : Secularism is not a "French specificity". Of course French secularism is a gift of the French Revolution, but the separation of Church and State, which is a political expression of the cultural idea of democracy, has existed even before the French revolution. For example, in the United States, there is a strict separation of Church and State. Nevertheless, democracy is the important thing that underlies the concept of Separation of Church and State: it is a cultural concept which exists only in countries, in societies, which have known an "age of reason". If you do not accept other men and women as equals, you will not accept a democratic concept and you will not nderstand the importance of this strict separation between Religion and State.

C.E.: Does the French law of separation, known as the 1905 Law, remain a reference in the whole world?

B.G.: I think so. But today, you can see that this separation is threatened, here, in France.

I was at your sides to protest against the Pope's visit and his official reception, even at the time of his private visit, by the French government. I would like to tell you that it is necessary and imperative to have a separation between Church and State.

Pakistan, for example, was created as a secular state, but 10 years after its creation, some dictators decided to transform it into an Islamic State. Now, we know how difficult it is to live, to preserve one's freedom of thought in a theocratic state. Our friend Doctor Shaikh, was sentenced to death in this country because he has (allegedly, and denied by him) expressed his opinion by saying that the Prophet Mohammad could not be a Muslim before the revelation of Islam. This appears very logical to me! But he will be put to death because he has expressed his opinion. The example of Dr. Shaikh is not unique: it is what happens today in Bangladesh, it is what happens in Nigeria, it is what happens in India. These are the situations which make me think that only a law of separation can ensure everyman's rights.

C.E.: You are speaking about Dr. Shaikh. The French Freethought Organisation, in relation with IHEU and other organizations, took an action for his release, for, as you pointed out, he was sentenced to death for the offence of blasphemy. Is that offence very widespread in the world and what action did the IHEU carry out to save Dr. Shaikh 's life ?

B.G.: The so-called offence of blasphemy is unacceptable. It is a means to protect the privileges of religions. One cannot understand why religious opinions need to benefit from some additional protection. As the UN Special Rapporteur on Fredom of Religion or Belief says, the laws on the so-called "blasphemy offence" are used almost like a weapon of war, against dissidents.

As for Dr. Shaikh, IHEU lobbied and created a lot of pressure on the governments – indeed, as you did in France. We have made contact with the governments and diplomats of several countries and nearly 25 countries put pressure on the Pakistani government. Dr. Shaikh is still in prison, but his life may not any more be in danger. We hope to hear positive news soon, for today the whole world is watching what Pakistan is doing concerning Dr. Shaikh.

C.E.: At IHEU meetings I have met a famous humanist, Taslima Nasreen, who is also a member of the IHEU. What are your connections and what actions do you carry out with her particularly within the UNESCO?

B.G.: Taslima Nasreen was also a victim of this law against blasphemy in Bangladesh. She was helped by the IHEU in her escape towards freedom when she left Bangladesh. Once in Europe, she was willing to support the humanist movement and she became a member of the IHEU delegation to the UNESCO.

C.E. Were there any historical links between UNESCO and IHEU ? If so, what were those links?

B.G.: Of course. The IHEU and the UNESCO have the same founder: Sir Julian Huxley, the famous scientist, who was the first director of UNESCO, was also President of the founding conference of IHEU. UNESCO particularly emphasizes science and human values, and that is also the case for IHEU. Members of IHEU’s UNESCO delegation represent humanist interests within UNESCO, and contribute to the creation of a new world civilization.

C.E.: To go back to our starting point, is the question of secularism, the Separation of Church and State, the real common agenda for all the members of IHEU, enable the triumph of absolute freedom of conscience? We can see that as an International organization, in IHEU there are some free thinkers, some humanists , some rationalists, skeptics and more generally, as we would call them in Europe, secularist people.

B.G.: Of course. Today, in the world, there is much more fundamentalism and intolerance and therefore it is very important to protect the State but also Religion. A strict separation of Church and State – of Religion and State - guarantees the independence of the State but also the independence of religion. It is within this framework that all the members of the IHEU want to work on an international level.

C.E.: Taking into account the very wide composition of the IHEU, could you tell us, what are the different centers of interests and activities of those different member associations?

B.G.: The secular and humanistic landscape, with regard to the IHEU, is very complex.

As to Pakistan and India for example, the members of IHEU primarily work on the question of Human rights, against superstition, for the promotion of science and scientific thought.

In Africa, the action is located on the ground of tolerance, on teaching modern knowledge. In the Eastern countries of Europe, we try to work against the harmful influence of the Vatican on society. In a country like the United States our member organizations endeavor to preserve the freedoms acquired by the population. The action of the member organizations of the IHEU varies and depends on the history in each country.

C.E.: In France, we say that you cannot be born a free thinker but you have to become one. Are there any humanistic youth associations? If so, what are their actions and their concerns?

B.G.: The regrouping of the humanist young people everywhere in the world was launched two years ago with the IHEYO (International Humanist and Ethical Youth Organization).

Amongst some other things, those young people stand for the elimination of racialism in the world. Their concerns are a little different from ours. They are interested in development assistance, freedom from the tyranny of the market economy in Third World countries, the fight against globalization of the Western market, and also environmental protection.

C.E.: Does the IHEU have publications or a website?

B.G.: The IHEU tries to communicate with the whole world and with its members through international conferences, through our quarterly review
"International Humanist News" and also through our website at:www.iheu.org.